The comment regards the veritable torrent of comment I seemed to unleash with was my naive question on the Horsehead. It seems to have evolved into an interesting discussion of the definition of what exactly is ATM and is it alive or dead. I think the simple answer is that it is alive and that those who build things, sometimes built scopes; those who buy things sometimes buy scopes. I "built" my 10 inch Dob but bought the mirror, partly because I was more interested in the mechanicals, but mostly because I have an active family life and can only steal an hour or so a week for this stuff. I greatly am in awe of the serious glass pushers but consider myself an ATM. I suspect that almost everyone buys their eyepieces but that is taken for granted. There is a smidge of concern that ATMs will stratify into those that grind and those that don't grind their primaries. I also brew beer as a hobby (used to, until aperature fever set in) and that "society" is stratified into those who grind their own grain and those who buy what is called extract. I think the emphasis should be on enthusiam, support and inclusion. Off the soapbox, Clear skies Steve