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Re: ATM Mirror box and rocker box height issues



Thanks very much Bill and Jeff for helping me out and taking the time to think about the problem. I feel a bit more comfortable with the calulations now. The essense of the matter is that to change the situation I either need to add weight to the bottom of the box or lighten the top end.
 
More than anything else I was a bit concerned that the results of my balance spreadsheet were somehow flawed. I think that obsession is probably using a thicker mirror than mine (which only weights 9.05kg/20lbs). I noticed that a 1.6" thick mirror from nova is about 11kg/24lbs. A 2.0" thick mirror is approx 15kg/33lbs. I don't actually know anyone who owns an obsession otherwise I guess would sneek a peek (prlbably a few peeks actually :-))
 
It is probably fair to speculate that given the Obsession's low profile rocker boxes they must be using the heavier 2.0" optics (given that on the face of the pictures I have seen they have not appreciably altered the design of their secondary cages).
 
Thanks again
 
Andrew Hincks
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: ATM Mirror box and rocker box height issues

Weight*fulcrum is the issue.  Having a lighter primary mirror (20lb vs 33lb)
makes a difference.
 
Suppose for the sake of discussion that the center of gravity of the mirror box
and secondary cage are 48 inches apart and that the poles (8 of them) weigh
1 pound each.  Let's also say that the mirror is 8 inches below the CG of the
mirror box.  Furthermore, assume the mirror box weights 20lb and the
secondary cage (with a heavy eyepiece) weighs 12lb.
 
    offset    weight    object
    0    20    mirror
    8    20    mirror box  
    32    8    poles
    56    12    secondary cage
 
Using Excel's goal seeker to find the center of gravity of the combined system
we find it to be 18.13" above the center of gravity of the mirror.  If we assume a
33lb mirror instead, we get 14.90", or about a 3.23" difference.  That's close
to the 3.5" inches you speak of.
 
If you want to lower the pivot point, you can add more counterweight (physical or
spring tension) to the mirror box.  However, having a higher rockerbox can
be viewed as a good thing, since it means you don't have to stoop as low when
you observe close to the horizon.  It doesn't change the overall height of the
viewfinder at zenith.
 
 Jeff Anderson-Lee
 
----- Original Message -----
From: A&S Hincks
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:03 AM
Subject: ATM Mirror box and rocker box height issues

Dear All,
 
I would really appreciate some advice on where my current scope design seems to be going astray. The height of my mirror box (and consequently the rocker box) seems a little on the high side. The scope I am constructing is virtually straight out of Kriege and Berry's (excellent) book.
 
 
Specs of the scope which is are as follows:
    Mirror Diameter:       16"
    Focal Ratio:             F4.5
    Mirror Weight:          20 pounds
    Secondary Mirror     3.1"
 
The secondary cage is virtually exactly per the above book (although approx 0.5" larger I.D. @17.5") and weighs (by my calculations) 12 pounds. Height of the secondary cage is by the book at say 11".  The spider and secondary holder are standard Novak units. Plywood is Finnish Birch @ 15mm thick. I also made a totally standard 27pt Kriege mirror cell with heavy walled 1" tube and 1.25" wide 0.25" thick side rails (am aware that this is overkill and I could theoretically get away with 3 - 6 pts :-))
 
Notably heavy items include supposedly standard issue items for obsession like the following:
    ngcdx3 focuser                                 1 lb
    allowance for eyepieces                     1.5lb
    Obsession upper cage pole clamps     1.79lbs (direct from Obsession - pretty meaty methinks...)
 
The mirror box is made of 18mm (say 3/4") Finnish birch (guessing about 13 - 15 ply) - I am supposing this is similar to FinnPly (although it doesn't actually go by that name in Australia).
 
I calculate the mirror box will need to be 18" high which is at least two inches higher that the above book suggests.
 
Interestingly, I did a few 'what-ifs' with the torque calculations and determined that if my mirror was 2" thick @ f5.0 (mirror 33lbs per Nova optics - with more torque at the secondary cage as an offset) Unlike my current 1.37" f4.5 (20 lbs) the mirror box would still need to be about 18 inches. I 3d modelled the scope and determined that the measurement from the ground to the top of the mirror box (excluding bearings) is 23.5" (Compare this with an 18" f4.5 obsession per the Obsession website at only 21" for the same dimensions.) I therefore extrapolate that the bottom half of my telescope is approximately 3.5" too high???.....
 
Can anybody shed any light on the above - Given the relatively standard 'Obsessionesque' components and design of the above scope can anyone work out how it is that Obsessions manage to keep their rocker boxes so low whilst mine seems disproportionately high.
 
Many Thanks
 
Andrew Hincks