Re: [APML]: Art or Science

["Robin Casady" <rcasady@carmelcoast.com>]

The Astro-Photography Mailing List
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>Gee I LOVE definitions!  They are right there in the dictionary for
>everyone to look up. <G>  If there is a disagreement, we can just look it
>up and get a definitive answer! <VBG>

Then you don't have to think about it. Someone has done that for you. ;-)

>Unfortunately, my dictionary doesn't say anything about "expression" in its
>definition of "art". <G>

That was the best word I could think of to cover the communication aspect of
Art.

><G>  And, the really  funny thing is, under the definition of "expression"
>the first one is "a pressing out or squeezing out, as of juice"!!!!! <G>
>Seriously!   Ok, it also says "picturing, representing, or symbolizing in
>art, music, etc".

That's it! To be Art, an image has to be really juicy. :-)

>It also says, VERY interestingly: "art: human ability to make things;
>creativity of man as distinguished from the world of nature", and more to
>the point: "art: creative work or it's principles, making or doing of
>things that display form, beauty and unusual perception."

The "unusual perception" is what I was using "expression" to try to express.

>By this definition, I think astrophotography certainly qualifies.

What "unusual perception" are we adding to astrophotos?

>The dictionary also has a definition of "fine art": (originally considered
>purely aesthetic, as distinguished from the 'useful' arts) 1. any of the
>art forms that include drawing, painting, sculpture, and ceramics, or,
>occasionally, architecture, literature, music, dramatic art or dancing."   
>
>Bzzzzzzz!  Sorry,no mention of photography! <G>

When was your dictionary written? That sounds like a definition that was in
use in the 17th Century. ;-)

>Now, an "artist" can assert anything he wants. Stieglitz can say his cloud
>photos were equivalent to emotions and if the mere concept of such an
>assertion qualifies the photos as art as expression, then this is an almost
>trivial definition and it isn't even interesting.  Anybody can assert
>anything they want about their work.  In other words, the art is not in the
>asserting, it is in the creation by the artist and the subsequent
>perception by others.

It wasn't what he asserted about his work after the fact, it was part of the
work. He was putting the images in a specific context to make a statement.
It wasn't hugely profound, but it was different than just taking pictures of
clouds. He was saying something about the clouds. 

>So, art is really perceptions and it can be different things to different
>people.

Or, different things to one person. It is a word that has a variety of uses
and meanings.

>But I have to disagree that astrophotography does not contain any
>"expression".  When I take an astrophoto, (at least a good one <G>), I see
>the incredible beauty of nature and it fills me with joy and wonder, and
>this is what I am expressing in my photo.

Are you merely recording something beautiful, or are you adding a personal
perspective to it? The film Itself is putting an interpretation on the
image, perhaps the film is creating Art.

>To say that an astrophoto is a craft/art (art with a little "a") and is a
>"mere"  documentary recording of nature and is not creative is to say that
>Michaelangelo's David is the same thing. And, it IS creative because
>through craft and technique it allows us to record things we cannot
>normally perceive with our unaided senses. To me, this is where
>astrophotography transcends craft and becomes an art form.

So, a microscope creates Art? It reveals things we cannot normally perceive.
You can use creativity to do many things in everyday life, are you making
Art?

>We can argue about the meaning of art till the cows come home and never
>reach a consensus except saying "I don't know what it is, but I know it
>when I see it". <G>

Or, I know it when I feel its message, Dude. 

>Let's argue about something with an answer like, oh, guiding an SCT with
>piggyback guidescope.

We can argue about guiding an SCT till the cows come home and never reach a
consensus. ;-)

Robin Casady
http://www.CarmelCoast.com

Casady & Greene, Inc.
http://www.casadyg.com