Re: [APML]: ST-4 v. 201xt Saga

[Robert Hoyle <rhoyle@earthlink.net>]

The Astro-Photography Mailing List
------------------------------------

Wil,

As always, good points.

But as for the sharp business practices of Meade (or anyone), if such things exist,
there is hardly ever any justification for such action, in my opinion.  Clearly, my
point on the "Free Market" was just to recognize such sharp practices are out there,
and exhibit one scenario, of many, in how it can occur.  [Caveat emptor?  Or,
"Exercise caution in you business affairs, for the world is full of trickery and
sham."]  Still doesn't make it right -- and bothers me to no ends.  Reason I left the
business world.

And, yeah, I'm on Astromart.  Just gotta save a little more money to get that used
ST-4.

Rx




Wil Milan wrote:

> The Astro-Photography Mailing List
> ------------------------------------
>
> Robert Hoyle wrote:
> >
> >
> > Wil, is that ST-4 price for a new unit?  When I was looking at these back in '96(?) 
>they
> > were around $900 new.  And to hook this up to my "boat anchor" LX3 was another $100, 
>or
> > so.  As I recall, the total was around $1000.  Just not feasible for my measly
> > "semi-retirement" income.
>
> Current price of a brand-new ST-4 is $595. But I almost never buy
> anything new, which is why I think of the price as $450 - $475,
> typical used prices.
>
> But I don't understand why it would cost another $100 to hook it
> up to an LX3. The 201xt requires an add-on relay unit to work
> with the LX3, but the ST-4 doesn't require that because it alreay
> has true relay outputs. Even with the LX3's unusual
> hand-controller circuitry all you'd have to do is wire the relay
> outputs across the button contacts and you're set. (I too owned
> an LX3, finally "losing" it about a year ago -- see below.)
>
> > For instance, on service, my dealings with them have been nothing but favorable -- on 
>*all*
> > my Meade equipment.  For example, when I first got my 201xt, it had some small 
>cosmetic
> > "imperfections."  I called Meade and said that this just didn't fit my pictures of 
>the kind
> > of quality product I expected from them.  I was nice about it, though.  The guy (John
> > Piper?) sent me an entirely new unit -- in the box -- within 5 days.   [What a 
>fortuitous
> > set of circumstance for me.  With this new unit came another AG-to-Drive Base 
>connector
> > cord.  And after cursing and hacking most of two nights about why the damned 
>auto-guider
> > thing wouldn't work, I tried the new cord.  Bingo.  Has worked perfectly ever since.]
>
> It's a comparative thing. I too have spoken with John Piper at
> Meade, and he is a helpful and knowledgeable guy. But the way
> Meade does customer support you can't reach him directly; when
> you call Meade you have to leave a message for a support rep, and
> someone will call you back, often days later. I compare that with
> SBIG, where you can get almost always be immediately connected to
> someone who can help with your problem, sometimes one of the
> engineers who designed your product. If you've not dealt with
> SBIG you would be astonished at the difference.
>
> > Could tell you at least a half-dozen other stories like this on my LX3's.  Got two of 
>them;
> > paid $300 and $400 respectively (complete: tripods, wedges, everything) as 
>demonstrators
> > from the Nature Co. in Berkeley, Ca. (their National "Outlet" Store) where I lived 
>while I
> > was going to law school.  You can imagine the shape they were in.  But Meade covered
> > virtually *all* the problems I had *under warranty* -- because they were not used 
>items.
> > Not bad.
>
> I had a different experience with my LX3. The drive cirtuit blew
> and it quit working. But the LX3 was sold with a "lifetime
> warranty," so I called Meade. Meade told me they no longer had
> the parts I needed, but if I would send the unit in they would
> work on it... for a $100 "service fee," plus shipping both ways.
> Charging $100 for service is not what I consider "covered under
> warranty."
>
> And I am not the only one. I reworked my LX3 drive to work off AC
> directly, using an external drive corrector. That left me with a
> hand controller I no longer needed, and not long afterward I sold
> it to a fellow who advertised for one on Astromart. Turned out
> his hand controller had quit working, and he too was told by
> Meade that they no longer carry those parts for the LX3. Despite
> the "lifetime warranty" Meade has not made parts for the LX3 for
> years, and very few are left.
>
> Based on that I fear for those who own LX200s; when Meade
> discontinues those my bet is they will soon thereafter quit
> making parts for them, and 5 years later it will be very hard to
> get those little custom electronic parts that make a LX200 go.
> And without all the little custom electronics working an LX200 is
> only a very expensive neo-Dobsonian.
>
> > These Meade guys are human too -- trying to make a go of it in a tuff world.  You 
>yell at
> > them; they yell at you.  Treat 'em with a little "reasonableness" -- maybe things 
>would be
> > different?  Maybe.
>
> You're assuming I didn't; I did. Do a search of Deja News over
> the last 2 or 3 years; I have often been a defender of Meade,
> sometimes against great opposition (really -- go check). But in
> some areas Meade is very deserving of criticism, and I'll say
> that too. It doesn't make me surly when I deal with Meade, and I
> own and have owned several Meade products, currently including an
> 8" SCT. But I have learned to take their performance claims with
> a big gob of salt, and not to count on their warranty service
> over the long term.
>
> > Couldn't agree more.  One of the "Excesses of the Free Market" I referred to above.  
>Spent
> > 20 years in the corporate business world dealing with some fairly high level people.  
>It is
> > *not* a very honest  business world.  Your competitor is beating the s--- out of you; 
>to
> > survive you start fibbing a little about your product.  The competitor follows suit.
> > Cycle-on.
>
> I made no criticism of free market per se, and I don't think
> untruthful advertising can be excused by saying that "everyone
> does it" because many do not. Over the years I have read
> thousands of ads and owned quite a few products by Celestron,
> Tele Vue, Astro-Physics, and other manufacturers that compete
> with Meade. On the products I have owned I have found that the
> claims of those other manufacturers are generally not greatly
> inflated; their products largely live up to the claims. I don't
> think anyone can make the same claim about Meade. If I read you
> correctly even you are not claiming that Meade's products live up
> to their hype, but only that the exaggerated hype is excusable. I
> disagree.
>
> Example of what I mean, from current Meade ads:
>
> "LX200 diffraction-limited imaging capabilities are a legend in
> the industry; we regularly receive reports stating that the
> optical performance approaches that of a fine ED apochromatic
> lens."
>
> Anyone who believes that please raise your hand. Anyone who has
> seen another manufacturer claim their SCTs are comparable to apo
> refractors, raise your hand. :-)
>
> > Wil, it has been good "sparring" w/you.  You're a really bright, articulate guy, and I
> > enjoy it.  Can we call it quits here?
>
> It was not, and is not, my intent to "spar" with anyone. But you
> asked some direct questions about what I wrote, and I've done my
> best to answer them. On APML there are usually several people who
> are considering autoguiders, and questions about the 201xt vs.
> ST-4 are quite common. I think it is very valid to compare their
> merits and claims, including the companies which stand behind
> them.
>
> > You're right.  If I had the money I'd buy an ST-4.
> > In fact I'm looking for a good used one now for my other LX3 -- and a 30" f/4.8
> > equatorially mounted Newtonian that I do photography on.  Got any leads?
>
> Advertise for one on Astromart; I don't think you'll have any
> trouble finding one under $500. After you've used one for the
> first time I'd be interested to hear how you think it compares
> with the 201xt.
>
> Wil M.
> mailto:wmilan@airdigital.com
> Astrophoto web site: http://www.airdigital.com/astrophoto.html
> ---
> "When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,
> the moon and the stars which You have set in place,
> what is Man that you are mindful of him,
> or the son of Man that you care for him?"  -- Psalm 8