Re: [APML]: ST-4 v. 201xt Saga

[Wil Milan <wmilan@airdigital.com>]

The Astro-Photography Mailing List
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Robert Hoyle wrote:
> 
> 
> Wil, is that ST-4 price for a new unit?  When I was looking at these back in '96(?) they
> were around $900 new.  And to hook this up to my "boat anchor" LX3 was another $100, or
> so.  As I recall, the total was around $1000.  Just not feasible for my measly
> "semi-retirement" income.

Current price of a brand-new ST-4 is $595. But I almost never buy
anything new, which is why I think of the price as $450 - $475,
typical used prices.

But I don't understand why it would cost another $100 to hook it
up to an LX3. The 201xt requires an add-on relay unit to work
with the LX3, but the ST-4 doesn't require that because it alreay
has true relay outputs. Even with the LX3's unusual
hand-controller circuitry all you'd have to do is wire the relay
outputs across the button contacts and you're set. (I too owned
an LX3, finally "losing" it about a year ago -- see below.)

> For instance, on service, my dealings with them have been nothing but favorable -- on 
>*all*
> my Meade equipment.  For example, when I first got my 201xt, it had some small cosmetic
> "imperfections."  I called Meade and said that this just didn't fit my pictures of the 
>kind
> of quality product I expected from them.  I was nice about it, though.  The guy (John
> Piper?) sent me an entirely new unit -- in the box -- within 5 days.   [What a 
>fortuitous
> set of circumstance for me.  With this new unit came another AG-to-Drive Base connector
> cord.  And after cursing and hacking most of two nights about why the damned auto-guider
> thing wouldn't work, I tried the new cord.  Bingo.  Has worked perfectly ever since.]

It's a comparative thing. I too have spoken with John Piper at
Meade, and he is a helpful and knowledgeable guy. But the way
Meade does customer support you can't reach him directly; when
you call Meade you have to leave a message for a support rep, and
someone will call you back, often days later. I compare that with
SBIG, where you can get almost always be immediately connected to
someone who can help with your problem, sometimes one of the
engineers who designed your product. If you've not dealt with
SBIG you would be astonished at the difference.

> Could tell you at least a half-dozen other stories like this on my LX3's.  Got two of 
>them;
> paid $300 and $400 respectively (complete: tripods, wedges, everything) as demonstrators
> from the Nature Co. in Berkeley, Ca. (their National "Outlet" Store) where I lived 
>while I
> was going to law school.  You can imagine the shape they were in.  But Meade covered
> virtually *all* the problems I had *under warranty* -- because they were not used items.
> Not bad.

I had a different experience with my LX3. The drive cirtuit blew
and it quit working. But the LX3 was sold with a "lifetime
warranty," so I called Meade. Meade told me they no longer had
the parts I needed, but if I would send the unit in they would
work on it... for a $100 "service fee," plus shipping both ways.
Charging $100 for service is not what I consider "covered under
warranty."

And I am not the only one. I reworked my LX3 drive to work off AC
directly, using an external drive corrector. That left me with a
hand controller I no longer needed, and not long afterward I sold
it to a fellow who advertised for one on Astromart. Turned out
his hand controller had quit working, and he too was told by
Meade that they no longer carry those parts for the LX3. Despite
the "lifetime warranty" Meade has not made parts for the LX3 for
years, and very few are left. 

Based on that I fear for those who own LX200s; when Meade
discontinues those my bet is they will soon thereafter quit
making parts for them, and 5 years later it will be very hard to
get those little custom electronic parts that make a LX200 go.
And without all the little custom electronics working an LX200 is
only a very expensive neo-Dobsonian.

> These Meade guys are human too -- trying to make a go of it in a tuff world.  You yell 
>at
> them; they yell at you.  Treat 'em with a little "reasonableness" -- maybe things would 
>be
> different?  Maybe.

You're assuming I didn't; I did. Do a search of Deja News over
the last 2 or 3 years; I have often been a defender of Meade,
sometimes against great opposition (really -- go check). But in
some areas Meade is very deserving of criticism, and I'll say
that too. It doesn't make me surly when I deal with Meade, and I
own and have owned several Meade products, currently including an
8" SCT. But I have learned to take their performance claims with
a big gob of salt, and not to count on their warranty service
over the long term.

> Couldn't agree more.  One of the "Excesses of the Free Market" I referred to above.  
>Spent
> 20 years in the corporate business world dealing with some fairly high level people.  
>It is
> *not* a very honest  business world.  Your competitor is beating the s--- out of you; to
> survive you start fibbing a little about your product.  The competitor follows suit.
> Cycle-on.

I made no criticism of free market per se, and I don't think
untruthful advertising can be excused by saying that "everyone
does it" because many do not. Over the years I have read
thousands of ads and owned quite a few products by Celestron,
Tele Vue, Astro-Physics, and other manufacturers that compete
with Meade. On the products I have owned I have found that the
claims of those other manufacturers are generally not greatly
inflated; their products largely live up to the claims. I don't
think anyone can make the same claim about Meade. If I read you
correctly even you are not claiming that Meade's products live up
to their hype, but only that the exaggerated hype is excusable. I
disagree.

Example of what I mean, from current Meade ads:

"LX200 diffraction-limited imaging capabilities are a legend in
the industry; we regularly receive reports stating that the
optical performance approaches that of a fine ED apochromatic
lens."

Anyone who believes that please raise your hand. Anyone who has
seen another manufacturer claim their SCTs are comparable to apo
refractors, raise your hand. :-)

> Wil, it has been good "sparring" w/you.  You're a really bright, articulate guy, and I
> enjoy it.  Can we call it quits here?  

It was not, and is not, my intent to "spar" with anyone. But you
asked some direct questions about what I wrote, and I've done my
best to answer them. On APML there are usually several people who
are considering autoguiders, and questions about the 201xt vs.
ST-4 are quite common. I think it is very valid to compare their
merits and claims, including the companies which stand behind
them.

> You're right.  If I had the money I'd buy an ST-4.
> In fact I'm looking for a good used one now for my other LX3 -- and a 30" f/4.8
> equatorially mounted Newtonian that I do photography on.  Got any leads?

Advertise for one on Astromart; I don't think you'll have any
trouble finding one under $500. After you've used one for the
first time I'd be interested to hear how you think it compares
with the 201xt.


Wil M.      
mailto:wmilan@airdigital.com
Astrophoto web site: http://www.airdigital.com/astrophoto.html
---
"When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, 
the moon and the stars which You have set in place, 
what is Man that you are mindful of him, 
or the son of Man that you care for him?"  -- Psalm 8