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Re: [APML] Muddying the water a bit (Was: A little M31 & M45)
Well here comes my two cents if anyone's interested.
I think noise reduction has been taken too far in many cases.
Some images I've seen have been subjected to so much noise
reduction they look wax-like. I think it detracts from the image.
I would much rather see some grain/noise.
The art to noise reduction really has to do with getting the reduction
where its needed (low S/N areas) and not applying it to the entire image.
I don't think it matters which software program one uses. They basically
all work the same IMO. What matters is using it with precision.
Rob Gendler
email: robgendler@att.net
Web Site: http://www.robgendlerastropics.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Vineyard" <deepskyphotos@hotmail.com>
To: "Discussion of Film Astrophotography" <astro-photo@seds.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 1:23 AM
Subject: [APML] Muddying the water a bit (Was: A little M31 & M45)
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've had a couple of observations on my mind for quite some time now
> (years actually). To me it seems there are at least two genres (types) of
> astrophotographers:
>
> a.) Those who wish to portray astro-objects as real "Photographs" of the
> sky, taken from the ground, through the atmosphere.
>
> b.) And those who wish to portray the object "as if it matches the
> magnification". As though seen from a viewpoint in space equal to the
> magnification or even lack thereof (The kind I like to do especially in
long
> focal length). This would obviously be a photographic illusion.
> However one can easily argue all types of photographs/images are in fact
> illusion, just zoom-in, for but one. Not to mention extraneous
theoretical
> and real considerations of that old bugger true color, nebula dispersion
as
> one moves towards them, and the anthropomorphic aristocentrism we place on
> plain old electromagnetic radiation to name only a few.
>
> But since we're really creating this stuff for only human consumption
(so
> far as I know), we want it to be realistic, however we portray the humanly
> visible slice of the electromagnetic spectrum (but then we all cheat on
that
> too in astrophotography).
> All that said, at my point along the road, I still prefer and use Mike
> Cook's original "grain reduction technique" with it's masking of brighter
> areas in Picture Window and then make the (actually smooth black to 3
> degrees Kelvin) background as grainless as I can get it, for realism, you
> understand. (Although Juan's software definitely still resides on my hard
> drive since it is a fine piece of software and has its uses depending on
the
> photo, each of which still seems unique to me during processing attempts.)
> So if we're churning out these fine illusions of reality, as if seen by
> some better human eye, then to me they should be absolutely grainless in
> appearance (up to the needed point of preserving any available real
detail)
> since human vision does not perceive the world as grainy.
> Now imagine there really are not only a and b above (classic duality),
but
> really a spectrum, and in this case, of astrophotographers.
>
>
> Jim Vineyard
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Hammonds" <shammonds@creatorsview.com>
> To: "'Wei-Hao Wang'" <whwang@gmail.com>; "'Discussion of Film
> Astrophotography'" <astro-photo@seds.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 7:08 PM
> Subject: RE: [APML] A little M31 & M45
>
>
> > Wei-Hao, Stuart, Chris S, Jose,
> > Thank you all for the nice comments. I am happy with the M31, it is
> > without
> > question my best effort on this object. Although the M45 is probably
also
> > my
> > best effort on this object, I'm still not satisfied. I appreciate the
all
> > of
> > the comments on smoothing.
> >
> > For the most part I think less is better. There is definitely a line
that
> > can be crossed for to much and this is probably a matter of taste. In
my
> > M45, it seems close so I'll give it another try. Thanks again.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > Scott Hammonds
> > www.creatorsview.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wei-Hao Wang [mailto:whwang@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:26 PM
> > To: Discussion of Film Astrophotography
> > Subject: Re: [APML] A little M31 & M45
> >
> > Scott, those are beautiful images. I especially like the colors.
> >
> > As for the smoothing issue, I don't think Scott's images are too smooth
or
> > artificial at all. The look very nice. However, in general, I do
prefer
> > images with a little noise/grain left.
> >
> > In an image, usually the faintest areas are full of noise/grain and the
> > very
> > bright pixels are real signals. However, the transition between noise
and
> > low level signal is continuous. There is always a brightness range
where
> > noise and low level signal coexist and cannot exactly tell what is
noise.
> > When we look at such an area, our eyes are annoyed by the noise but can
> > still recognize some pattern which may well be real signal. I like to
> > protect such an area from being smoothed.
> > Otherwise I lose those signals and the image looks too smooth.
> >
> > My $0.02.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Wei-Hao
> >
> > --
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Wei-Hao Wang :)
> >
> > Institute for Astronomy at University of Hawaii
> >
> > Address:
> > 2680 Woodlawn Drive Personal Website:
> > Honolulu, HI 96822 http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~wang
> > ________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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